E3 2012: Excitable Egits Everywhere
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It electronic three time!! New games! New consoles! The culmination of months of crazy rumour mongering all ruined in leaks the morning before the presentations!
So what are we hoping for this year? What do we make of Konami's announcements? Will the WiiU gain a first wind? How will the old HD consoles carry on for another year? What big screen games will be hamstrung onto the Vita? Something insulting about the 3DS? Will there be any PC games? -
Rumours of a multiplatform Airplay solution to the Xbox to be shown on Monday. Be bloody nice to get another alternative outside of the house of Apple.
http://www.examiner.com/article/microsoft-set-to-reveal-xbox-smart-glass-tablet-at-this-years-e3?cid=db_articles -
Is it all games or do they do stuff like fancy overpriced toasters there as well?Post edited by pagettypol at 2012-06-02 03:04:16
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I guess I'm interested to see the Wii U, but I don't think there's going to be anything to show that's much different than before -- the games will be the same and the uses for the controller were pretty much exhausted last year.
Aside from that, it's going to be pretty much the same old shit, so I'm hoping there are some games revealed we haven't seen anything about before. -
pagettypol said:
Is it all games or do they do stuff like fancy overpriced toasters there as well?
Convergence. Every next-gen console to have a bun warming rack, I thought we'd all agreed this is the way forward.
Mmmm. Baked goods. (no VAT).
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@dastardly - I kind of expect that, given the array of controller options on the existing Wii. Dunno if there is a lot of profit in flogging additional controllers (non touch screen ones) but its not like Nintendo to leave a cash cow unmilked.
I know it's deeply unlikely, but I'd love it to be Wavebird compatible. -
Well, if they're a sizeable part of the market, then their voice will be heard.
Or, if the game's creative team decide that the motion controls are an integral part of the gameplay, then maybe they *won't* be swayed... and those people who refuse to accept a different control scheme will remain disappointed.
A d-pad and two buttons is all anyone should ever want, anyway. On a Nintendo console, that is; the 2600 made do with just one button. And a *joystick*, the heathens. -
It shouldn't always be about the numbers. Some consideration for the fans who made Nintendo their money in the first place would be nice. I don't think I'm being unreasonable wanting traditional controls to be added AS AN OPTION. I'm not asking them to scrap motion controls, just give us both. It surely wouldn't cost any extra and everybody wins. In the rare cases where traditional controls just wouldn't work then fair enough, but there's no reason why games like Phantom Hourglass couldn't have both, for example.
I can only speak for myself, but the reason I won't accept motion controls is that they're shit compared to buttons and dpads/sticks.Post edited by Dastardly at 2012-06-02 09:22:36 -
I think you mean "Twilight Princess" than "Phantom Hourglass", and that's a good example of your argument - especially when the GC & Wii versions exist side-by-side.
But, for *me*, I could never play the GC version of Twilight Princess - because the motion controls didn't feel tacked on at all, and (as I wrote way back in the day) "when you’re dispatching Lizardmen with a Z-lock, two jabs of the Wiimote and a flick of the nunchuck, you’re convinced that there’s no other way to play the game".
You may argue that Mario Galaxy would be improved if the spin attack was mapped to a button press; that may be possible, but it would totally miss the point. The little flick of the wrist that's required to get Mario spinning in the air feels *right* - you flick, and his spin somehow matches the movement. There's a connection there that feels utterly *joyous*, and to replace that with Yet Another Button Press would seem criminal.
The fact that developers *can* implement multiple control schemes, but mostly choose not to, can mean many things. Maybe they're lazy; maybe they don't have the cash. Or maybe they want you to play their game in a particular way.
(As for Nintendo's fans "who made them their money in the first place"... where were they in the N64 and Gamecube years, when they were struggling for cash? And who lined Nintendo's pockets most recently?) -
I actually did mean Phantom Hourglass, but TP does show that both control schemes can work. I really don't want to take motion controls away from those that enjoy them. For some people they clearly add a lot to the immersion, but they leave me cold. Nintendo refusing to include an alternative, when there's no reason not to, fells like them having to justify their new tech by forcing it on everyone, while sticking 2 fingers up to everyone else.
Maybe the N64 and GC weren't as popular as the DS and Wii, but there were a lot of Nintendo fans who did support those consoles and, however few this might be, surely they deserve not to be dismissed completely, in the case of those that don't want motion controls? I really don't see why it feels like I'm asking for the moon. -
I'm struggling to see what PH has to do with a motion-control argument - that's the DS game. And, in case you meant "Skyward Sword" - which I've got paused as I type this as I tiptoe through Hero Mode - that's something that most certainly would be compromised in the absence of motion controls. I've only just learnt how to flip Skulltulas! :}
Maybe you're *not* asking for the moon... but you *are* asking for extra work. And you make it sound like Nintendo's launching a personal vendetta against you. But I'd contend that what you feel now is no different to the fans that think SM64 or OoT are sub-par because Nintendo "dismissed" the 2D realm; the team there have a vision for their game, and they're implementing it the way they want. There's clearly no edict within Nintendo that states that all first-party games must be motion-control only; MKWii demonstrates that.
Anyhoo, this tangent was sparked because you wanted Nintendo to "at least give us the option" of using traditional controllers... but that option has always been there for individual titles to implement as they see fit. It's a game developer's issue, not a platform issue (though WiiU may change that, of course). -
Oh - and there's a great post on The Brainy Gamer that posits that this E3 will be a turning point for shooters. Whilst I personally think we're still a few years off that yet, it's a great read - and an idea that I hope spreads.
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I've been using "Motion control" as a catch all term for both motion controls and stylus controls. My mistake, sorry for the confusion.
I am asking for extra work yes, but in the grand scheme of a games development, it's not that big a deal. Assigning the controls to the buttons for PH wouldn't have bust any budgets I'm sure.
I think your analogy that the leap from 2D to 3D in Nintendo's franchises is interesting but not the same as what I'm talking about. Adding optional dpad controls to games where possible is a small thing compared to creating an entire additional game in 2D to satisfy the "old school".
Maybe it is a developer issue to include traditional controls or not, but I've not enjoyed Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Skyward Sword or Mario Galaxy to a lesser extent, due to the devs deciding NOT to include them.
Anyway, I don't wish to derail this thread any further, and I still hope that the Wii U sees a return to some traditional controls as well as the motion/touch stuff and then everyone can enjoy them :) -
The thing is that to a huge extent the control scheme is the game, and that's where all the refinement lives. Different things are difficult and different things are engaging with different input methods, and it would take a considerable amount of real work to make a game that was equally satisfying across multiple substantially different control modalities. And you're talking specifically about Nintendo, who tends to kind of stress about polish.
If that weren't the case, then making Windows 8 just as perfect for mouse and touch (and large and small screens) would be trivial work and Apple wouldn't have gone through this silliness about having a different UI model for mobile devices. Plants vs. Zombies and World of Goo wouldn't be way easier on a touch screen. We wouldn't have suffered through that endless nonsense about mouse vs controller in shooters. The very same games would succeed on 360, iPad, and iPhone -- I mean all you have to do is port the controls, right?
Hell, if that weren't the case, you wouldn't be complaining about motion controls. The real issue is that they're making games that work in a way that you don't like playing. Some of these involve questionably shoehorned motion mechanics. Those are not cases against motion controls, they're games with bad control design choices. But some of these games are really pretty good! I can't imagine objecting to control mechanic changes in a Zelda game -- I mean nothing else has changed between them -- and Galaxy 2's Yoshi mechanic is terrific fun, totally appropriate to the character, and couldn't have been done in a worthwhile fashion with a controller.
It's funny, because 'old school' to me means the arcades of yore, and the first thing you'd notice walking into an arcade was how many different control panels there were. What I see with all these devices that bring motion/touch options into the picture is an attempt to return to that sort of variety of ideas, yet retaining standardized/cheap hardware. I think that's still tremendously exciting. Sure, there's a lot of garbage, but there was a lot of garbage in the arcades too. And at least some of that garbage was new, and a lot of broken ideas mutated into wonderful ones.
It's still early days for all these new input modalities. The Kinect camera resolution/viewing angle is a problem. The lack of gyroscopes in the original Wii remote is a huge problem that absolutely kept the Wii from reaching its potential (and they're fixing that for Wii U -- motionplus is required). People are just getting the hang of how to do a non-shallow action game on a touch-only device. I mean, how hard is that?Post edited by alex at 2012-06-03 00:42:14 -
Post edited by Rockwaldo at 2012-06-02 20:56:26
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@Rochefort -- I'm not excited.
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I find World of Goo far easier by mouse, and surely that's the point. You can tweek those jiggle-waggle controls until they feel positively psychic to you, but there will always be a sizable segment for whom they don't work at all. Ignore them and they will go away - and not bother with your game.
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Can I ask a question of those people who dislike motion controls in general: if you *know* that a game *only* has motion controls, do you still buy it? If so, are you doing so because of a deep-seated love of the franchise, or because you're hoping that *this* time the controls will be OK?
(That's an honest, non-snarky question.) -
@alex : spot-on, matey. Especially this bit, which I think cuts to the core of Dastardly's issue:
alex said:The real issue is that they're making games that work in a way that you don't like playing.
We're all here because of a passion for gaming, but not all of us are happy with where gaming seems to be going. Dastardly doesn't like the removal of "traditional" control schemes; I don't like the move to hyper-realism (or the - thankfully diminishing - zombie -game fetish). -
@xAD I'm not talking about the Wiimote for Goo (which I actually do like - mostly because it's good enough and sprawled across the couch waving orders seems like the correct posture for that sort of game. But also because it really does feel a lot like pinching and flinging those little fellers). I was talking about playing it on the iPad, where some of the more frantic and time sensitive stuff is easier because you have ten (or at least two) gooey fingers at your disposal. Or are you saying that touch-screen controls don't work for you at all? Like pushing stuff around on a flat surface is too new-fangled and hokey? Would you rather play cards and board games with a mouse?Post edited by alex at 2012-06-03 00:56:54
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moobaa said:
Can I ask a question of those people who dislike motion controls in general: if you *know* that a game *only* has motion controls, do you still buy it? If so, are you doing so because of a deep-seated love of the franchise, or because you're hoping that *this* time the controls will be OK?
(That's an honest, non-snarky question.)
I've tended to shy away - hence my general preference fir the 360 this gen.
There have been some eexceptions of course, but I've just generally found that motion control just hasn't added anything to the game experience - either through being poorly thought out or simply not being accurate enough. (ssx on Wii stands out in both counts)
I've also found that it's just too easy to move out of range or need to pause the game for control recalibration or whatever which just destroys immersion.
Not just on the Wii this. Stock PS3 games with tacked on waves bits (uncharted, folk lore) really got on my tits. And kinect just takes too much setting up to be a daily part of my gaming routine.
The most successful implementation - by those criteria - so far has been move, and thats probably been the least successful financially.
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Motion control got my Mum out of her chair to do bowling on Wii Sports. That's an achievement.
My kids have loved the motion control, especially my daughter with Mario Galaxy. I didn't mind some of the WiiFit minigames but I haven't been captured by anything as yet. Mind you if someone did a proper swordfighting game on a motion control platform that left me a physical wreck at the end of a game I'd be all over that like a rash. -
To a certain extent motion control will always be a bit hit and miss (or imprecise) but down to the way that peoples movements vary from person to person normally without them being truly aware of what they are physically doing rather than any limit of the technology. This is where a physical control will always be better no mater how good the tech gets because a physical control forces everyone to a known set of actions. This is where people showing kinect type controls for surgery using robots makes me nervous, give the surgeon a physical controller (remote versions of the instruments being used) and instantly you've removed a layer of error prone motion capture and given the user a more natural interface for the job than moving their hands around in free space.
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I definitely prefer traditional controls, but I have nothing against motion controls if they're all that's on offer. In truth though, I've yet to play a single motion control game on any system where I've felt they've added to the experience and were doing something that couldn't be done on a traditional controller.
I can see both sides of the argument on this matter, but until a motion controlled game comes along that convinces me it couldn't be done as well with traditional controls, then I agree with Dastardly and think that Nintendo et al should be offering something for the luddite. -
@Chad - does that extend to the recent Zelda's as well? Especially SkywardSword.
I really can't imagine going back to button pressing for sword fighting after SS. To me it feels much more intuitive and allows for some more interesting fights where you need to be slashing in the right axis to land hits.
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